Guest Post by PlanetNL
Time to Rezone the Island Grid
The matter of backup power needs on the Avalon, as analysed in
PlanetNL23, brings into focus a bigger issue about fairness to the many
off-Avalon ratepayers. Nalcor’s
Reliability and Resource Adequacy Study confirmed that Muskrat energy is to be
delivered specifically to the Avalon end of Island grid to meet Avalon power
needs. The future addition of new
Combustion Turbines (CTs) is also a response to
an Avalon-specific risk issue. The issue is not a new one – just an
The high cost Holyrood Thermal
Generating Station existed principally to satisfy Avalon winter power needs
while the off-Avalon portion of the Island Interconnected System (IIS) was
essentially self-sufficient on low cost hydro-power. Despite this inequality of need and inequality
of cost of power, all IIS ratepayers pay an equal rate. With Muskrat rate increases just around the
corner, it’s time to put this issue under the spotlight and propose a fairer
allocation of costs.
The entire Island has been treated as one homogenous energy
market for decades. Whether a customer
lives in an easy to service urban area or in a distant remote community, if
they are on the IIS, all customers within a specific class (i.e. residential,
commercial) pay the same rate. The distinctions
in service cost across different parts of the territory are completely blurred.
In recent decades, other jurisdictions have abandoned the
large highly integrated monolithic utility structure in several ways. In some areas, generation, transmission and
distribution operations have been separated out as independent businesses. Further competition can be enabled as
monopoly operators are eliminated or broken up.
Large geographical zones can also be subdivided to more accurately
reflect the true cost in different service areas. Proper segmentation of service areas can
reveal more accurate data to guide customers, utilities and regulators to
identify opportunities for improvement.
This post concentrates mainly on the last point: segmenting the Island
into more than one rate zone.
This post comes with an up-front warning that this issue seems
to have avoided discussion and analysis for many years, and it is sure to stoke
controversy and provoke more questions than answers. A detailed study would surely be warranted to
identify boundaries and to calculate cost of service in previously undefined
areas. In lieu of extensive data, the
analysis is kept to a high level.
Posts by PlanetNL
More Pre-Sanction Fraud or Incompetence
A Fair Rate Idea That Won’t Shock You
Avalon CTs and Holyrood
While preparing PlanetNL23, the unfairness of the single rate
zone that is the IIS kept rearing its ugly head. It started with thinking about the massive
new CTs that are so clearly needed as backup to the Avalon region in the event
either Muskrat Falls generation or the Labrador Island Link has a winter-time
The first question of fairness is whether all Island
ratepayers should share equally in paying for the Avalon backup CTs. How is billing an extra 1.5 c/kWh to all
ratepayers across the IIS fair when only those on the Avalon receive a direct benefit? Wouldn’t off-Avalon ratepayers be dead to
rights to demand that such a cost not be put on their bill? Shouldn’t Avalon ratepayers pay the full
impact for the CTs instead?
Take another step back and consider the same question
regarding Holyrood costs over the decades.
Was it fair for off-Avalon ratepayers to have subsidized Holyrood costs
for the benefit of Avalon ratepayers? If
there were separate Avalon and off-Avalon rate zones and Holyrood costs were
allocated solely to Avalon ratepayers, Avalon zone energy rates should probably
have been about 50% higher while the off-Avalon rate should have been about 30%
lower. Was this perennial hidden subsidy
The next and biggest question of all is the enormous cost of
the Muskrat Project. If it is
principally for the Avalon, isn’t it radically unfair to allocate its costs
Defining the Zones
The critical Avalon-zone is generally the area served
principally by the Sunnyside Terminal Station and simultaneously dependent on
Holyrood winter energy supply. NL Hydro
and Newfoundland Power would have to clarify the absolute boundaries but it’s
assumed to be south of Sunnyside as depicted in the transmission map
Portion of the Island Interconnected System (source: NL Hydro)
transmission system is not shown)
off an Avalon zone will divide the Newfoundland Power service territory as
shown another map below. There could be
additional splitting of the zones although too much change at once would be
very challenging to implement.
first extra division to propose already exists in the remote areas of the
Island where distribution is delivered by NL Hydro rather than Newfoundland
Power. Hydro tracks costs in these rural
regions and they are known to be significantly more costly to administer than
the rest of the IIS (evidence of this is easy to find in the GRA
documents). The NL Hydro served area
could easily become its own rate zone area.
Service Areas (source: Newfoundland Power)
While these off-Avalon zones should be relieved of Avalon
energy cost premiums, it is only fair for them to pay their actual cost of
service which is likely to be higher than the average on the Avalon. It’s also possible that in a full PUB rate-design
hearing examining rezoning, a small incremental portion of Avalon energy sources
could be found to be essential to the reliable operation of the balance of the
Island. Given both issues, off-Avalon rates
may not decline much or at all, but they also wouldn’t be unfairly subjected to
major cost increases levied for system upgrades they didn’t require.
The proposed rezoning and reallocation process could deliver rate
stability and fairness to most off-Avalon ratepayers. This group does not need Muskrat rate
mitigation. They just need a fair deal
for the system costs as they use them. Rezoning
is a key unused tool to help refine policy for the region to the benefit of
The Avalon Requires Massive Intervention
While off-Avalon ratepayers may take a great liking to the
proposed rezoning, many Avalon ratepayers may recoil at the prospect of facing both
Muskrat and new CT backup energy costs on their own. Clearly the rate impact will be that much
greater without off-Avalon ratepayers sharing in the burden.
As covered in PlanetNL11, the appropriate rate mitigation tool
for the Avalon region is a full prudence review of the Muskrat Interconnected
Project. The Commission of Inquiry has
already revealed overwhelming evidence that Muskrat was the wrong project at
the wrong time to meet the wrong needs. As
former Premier Tom Marshall said from the stand at the Inquiry last week, there
is no reason the PUB cannot be authorized to conduct a thorough review – a prudence
review. It simply must be done.
Doing so as part of the PUB’s recently initiated Rate
Mitigation hearing process would provide a fair cost estimate for a legitimate
solution to replace Holyrood. A prudence
review would develop legitimate system planning alternatives that were
expressly avoided or unfairly sabotaged by Nalcor. It would also be based on a real load
forecast, not the inflated imaginary forecast Nalcor touted to justify an
oversized expansion project.
As presented in PlanetNL21, Conservation and Demand Management
should have been front and center and was the least cost tool to mitigate
Holyrood costs and might have potentially decreased rates in the
long-term. As noted in that post,
however, backup CTs would add back some extra costs. The anticipated bottom-line had such an
alternative been adopted in a rezoned Avalon might have been rate stability or a
subtle rate increase only.
for Political Interference
By maintaining a single Island rate zone, all data is stirred
into one bucket in a way that has made decision-making and identification of
needs and opportunities very inefficient and inappropriate. Bad utility decisions get approved because
the rate impacts are low when spread among all ratepayers. Separation of rate zones would give bad
decisions less place to hide.
The single Island-wide rate zone is also ripe for political interference. The proposed division of rate zones would
make it more difficult for politics to force bad decisions on the operations of
utilities and the public would smell a rotten egg much more easily.
The creation of at least two zones would also lessen the
preference-bias for decisions that benefit the Avalon at the expense of
others. The Avalon is the home of centralized
Government decision-making, utility executives, and most big business and political
influencers. By segregating the utility
system, pro-Avalon-bias will have a harder time getting traction.
Splitting the IIS is not only an important opportunity with
great potential to better manage our electrical utilities in the long-term, it
can also stimulate critically needed political discourse in the short
term. While stirring up old Townies vs
Baymen animosities wouldn’t normally be encouraged, a bit of a tussle where
Muskrat and electricity rates are concerned just might be the thing to ignite
meaningful political debate.
This is silly with a rate base as tiny as your 500,000 residents are.
All this nonsense to avoid the truth. The need for a phalanx of CT's was clearly outlined in the EA submission by Nalcor for the MF JRP. Too bad the PUB was neutered prior to the hearing, it might have identified how2 nuts that was (and still is).
All of these foolish gymnastics to avoid a simple truth, you have a political problem, not a supply one.
If the PUB advice on running another line into the Avalon or adequate maintenance repeatedly advised by the PUB and ignored always, had been followed the "Avalon problem" would vaporize. So much hot air PlanetZ to avoid a simple truth. Dismantle the Nalcor monster, follow the Pub advice, or alternatively start inching into the 21st century.
How you ask? Burn the plans for the CCT's. Build wind farms to supply power on the best wind regime in the world; the Avalon peninsula! Back that supply with industrial battery farms (talk to Musk for a cost effective solution but don't let Nalcor or Winston get near the costing of said load balancing batteries). Rest assured that when you have problems with parts of the system goes down, the wind will be howling for a supply. If not the batteries will do for a couple of hours until the wind picks up.
I have heard of Reganonomics, and voodoo economics. Can someone coin a name for Bruno's economics? Brunonomics seems obvious.
Instead of doing arithmetic, Bruno defers to his first cousin Elon Musk for numbers. He equates Nfld winter with Australia summer where they installed a large battery
The cost: 90 million, I think in US dollars, installed price.
Capacity 129MWh, so 129MW for 1 hour. Also it has a yearly operating expense charged at 4 million a year. The battery owner/operator retains control of 30 % of the capacity and other is 70%.
By buying low on power and selling high, this can help the bottom line. For example In Texas, they let rates climb as high as $4.00 per kwh to shave the high summer peak. How would that go over here in winter for heat?
Tesla wall pac with solar panels in the USA generally exceed 20,000.00 and I think 27 year payback. And not suited for electric baseboard heat or electric hot water.
So what capacity of utility size batteries does Bruno propose; just to offset Holyrood 490 MW, or offset that plus the 123 MW CT at Holyrood, and the 50MW CT at Hardwoods? And wind double his battery capacity, as they operate at about 50% capacity. Does he propose to mothball island hydro as transmission is too long, and remote hydro is obsolete, and use batteris /wind for that? He has never defined what is "remote" as to distance.
If the Avalon has 1100 MW, and 2 lines now supplies 650, and this third line now going in, does that give 1100? Even if the 3 rd line only goes to Western Avalon?
And what IF…. 1 or 2 of the 3 lines goes down for 2 weeks, where is our back up? Has Bruno monitored winds to say no more than 2 hrs of low wind conditions …….what is his P factor for that assurance? So if low winds are low for 6 or 8 hrs, and the CT plans are burned….many will want Bruno's scalp? But he is safe in cape Breton, getting low cost NFld Hydro power or burning wood, and puffing on his wacky backie. Ah…..let's call Bruno's economic power schemes Wackinomics, as a BC leader was nicknamed Wackie Bennett, was it not?
Mind you, batteries and solar has some small application for Nfld , maybe, but Bruno is all in: Wackinomics, as he refuses to give arithmetic at to capacity, no costs, no hours for battery charge,no distance to define remote, as AJ says, Bruno just makes statements. So they are opinions,as they say, like arseholes, everyone has them. Nalcor we now see were full of them, called "assumptions", though they were false assumptions. We need reasonable analysis, not just opinions, and false assumptions. We need fewer arseholes.These are on the stand at the Inquiry regular.
As to PlanetNL….makes perfect sense….why should Nflders west of the Avalon pay for infrastructure, double the power rate , to serve just the Avalon? Why did they pay for Holyrood cost for the past 50 years?
Credits due for that unfairness? If we want to save rural Nfld, start with fair electricity rates, by zone. Again , do the arithmetic to see what it shows.
That was quite a rant that as I hinted no one else will read.
"We need reasonable analysis, not just opinions, and false assumptions. We need fewer arseholes." I agree start with yourself and your wacky analysis. Read my post again for the solution.
The rant was not analysis, just questions to your non analysis. And a few numbers to illustrate how silly your plan on a large scale really is. You costed less than 1 billion a few days ago, but obvious many billions, and lacks reliability. Bruno Wackinomics.
As to Mfs, for monster houses, these have 50 kw heat loads not unusual. If you do the arithmetic, this costing about 1 million per house to meet winter demand entirely from MFs. Small business have demand charges over 10kw, so fair costing these house should be hit with large demand charges………reduced demand should be central issue. We need to reduce unnecessary new supply, of any type.
So,again, Planetnl is correct:foremost use CDM, as too says Synapse,as to does NS and Vermont , Mass etc, …..that is not Wackinomics, that is Winstonommics. CDM as main trust, moderate wind additions, some island hydro, some storage not likely battery, eliminte island tranmission restraints,but CTs still needed as backup, for minimum use, and shutdown obsolete thermal units.
That is not analysis, but a plan outline, subject to analysis.
Most CDM costs less than 3 cents per kwh, Of course such a plan made much more sense preMF sanction.
If not reasonably assessed, then we head for boondoggle phase 2.
In this plan, there may indeed be room for an experimental modest battery for 1 hr power…….but you put it ahead of CDM, and against your prior statements months ago……Wacki + flipflop.
Forget it Winston… UG officially endorsed this triple idiot to keep the rational and constructive people out of the blog.
He succeeded so far.
UG is just another typical NL leader :
–Seeking responsibility anywhere outside
–Looking for ways to fight out of NL responsibilities with legal cases
Etienne troll is back I see!
Come on Greg/Bruno, you don't fool anybody anymore. How's your own premier, Mr. McNeil, doing down there. Why not gift him with all your kooky logic and leave us alone?
I claim no great memory, Bruno, but I get by.
You first comment today includes the words: silly,nonsense and foolish to give a wide sweep to the whole piece by PlanetNl, not a good word for any part. Yet the piece says CDM is the first essential component to countering Holyrood thermal generation etc and of its cost effectiveness.
You claim educating me (and one assumes educating PlanetNL on CDM via your negawatt reference. Indeed I do recall you used the word, but when, maybe 2 years ago?
I just took Liberty to go back to UG for 2012, and surprised to see typical then only 1 or 2 comments. I went into just one, showing 1 comment, dated Oct 19, titled Principle or Project. I looked at the comment, it is mine. I mention that transmission losses alone, at 10% will be about 1 billion dollars, enough if spent on 100,000 houses,(so CDM) would offset the full generation energy of Holyrood. I also suggest that Dunderdale would not understand this cost and waste.
Des, in his piece mentions the wisdom of having DG3 numbers, and also mentions we are 1 of only 2 provinces not having an independent conservation and efficiency agency.
My published pieces on CDM was in Oct/NOV 2012, and certainly Des Sullivan and too Dave Vardy were well aware in that era.
So when did you, Bruno, join UG to enlighten me and others on CDM?
CDM took hold in the USA NE about 20 years ago, California maybe 30 year ago, NS big on this in 2008.
I used double wall construction on my cottage in 1987, and minisplit in 2010, leading to insight for my 2012 analysis as to MFs alternative as to CDM, and presentations at the PUB.
So, where would I and others be without you and your negawatt word?
When did you first join the conversation on UG? When did you say negawatt?
How is your memory vs mine.
I have stated no one on this blog ever endorsed Efficiency NL.
The Oct 19/2012 piece, Des essentially said it in different words. So, my memory is not perfect, my error there.
Bruno, I estimate as much as 45 % of our energy is wasted, but not all may be economical to reduce. But IF IT WAS, we may need neither batteries and even little wind energy, given our over 1100MW of hydro. Elon, in my opinion, would not make much inroads here with batteries, for a long time. But essential to have good analysis, not just assumptions.
One may wonder about my post @ 22:03.
Bruno had posted a few lines saying generally that my memory was faulty, as he has repeatedly said that CDM is the lowest cost and always comes first before any new power source. Not only that, but that he educated me to this point of view, by his referring to negawatts a long time ago on UG.
So I countered with my reply above……only to notice that his prior post had disappeared. How did that happen? Did I imagine reading his comment? Is my memory really failing me? Did UG delete his comment or Bruno delete it somehow? A mystery to me. Can someone else confirm that his comment ever existed? Need I see a doctor, as to what I thought Bruno said? Has Bruno driven me over the bend? If I imagined it I should quit UG altogether, as Bruno and I don't mix well. He has entertainment value, and occasional insights, but mostly …….just Wacki, maybe some days his backie is good ,and some days poor quality. I just wonder.
Meanwhile a cartoon on VOCM site. Learmonth is questioning KD: "Miss Dunderdale, is it true that you were Premier when Muskrat Falls was sanctioned"? Her reply : "I don't remember".
A friend tells me of another cartoon. Danny Willians, dressed in his legal robes, telling Kathy "These are the things you are allowed to remember".
Forgetfulness is highly prised by these scallywags as an excuse to avoid responsibility. Most,like me, take offence if accused of a faulty or convenient memory.
How did solar panels get into debate? They and batteries are toxic. SP's physically degrade at the atomic level releasing electrons (electricity) stimulated by ultraviolet radiation (light) losing efficiency over time. Off to SP recycler that hopefully exists in 20 years. Batteries = hazardous goods = huge shipping fees. NOTE: I use solar panels and batteries for 20 yrs, multiple sites and observed and advised others, but that's obvious obfuscation of a red herring tossing S.P.'s in the mix when refuting wind power, come on!
If Holyrood ends up burning anything other than gas, they should march in the streets and block delivery of any diesel type of combustion turbine to Seal Cove. Obviously it's 1960's and 1970's technology and good reason why you can get a used on cheap.
I'd lay down my body on the line too if they have to look at decades more black toxic carcinogen particulate coating their homes and vehicles, campers, clotheslines and drifting down into the streams and ocean directly going into the berries they pick, fresh & salt water fish/seafood eaten all over Conception Bay. Wind and currents don't obey municipal boundaries or other imaginary lines.
RE: BATTERY/ENERGY STORAGE/LOAD SHIFTING/PEAK SHEARING
At least 27 MW of wind turbines on South Side Hills + Advanced Compressed Air Energy Storage [A-CAES] in the tunnels below.
LOWEST COST/kWh ENERGY STORAGE.
A-CAES turns renewable electrical energy into potential mechanical energy during times of excess (overnight wind). Compresses air and stores heat. At demand peaks, air and heat are recombined in generator around 6-9 AM and 4-7 PM if wind slack. Lots of oil tanks on the South Side Hill, pick a disused one for water storage even if unsafe anymore for oil.
Wind power is extremely cheap now. Vestas and GE fall all over themselves to finance projects, so much so, investment analysts fret over competitive burgeoning ever larger more efficient & economical investment, more MWh per dollar and per square foot. Wind turbines are lasting longer, fewer moving parts, less hydrocarbons for lubrication, less maintenance. Inevitable bird kills can be remediated by a government wide policy to use windows in buildings that keep bird strikes down (windows they can see).
Canadian company http://www.hydrostor.ca installs A-CAES systems.
Lowest installed cost per kilowatt hour (kWh) for large-scale, long duration energy storage, up to 50 year system life with unlimited cycling (energy storage & discharge) No replacement required.
No toxic materials like batteries that have to be dismantled or de-commisioned after 15-20 years(generous est.). No thermal impacts on environment. Ideal for high-value grid applications near load (demand) Low noise, small footprint. ZERO EMISSIONS.
Can use salt water for hydrostatic pressure to force the compressed air back to the surface. No impact on city water supply or pristine Southside Hills ponds or streams. If it came down to it in the unlikely event that salt water couldn't be used at the site, many waterfalls on South Side Road spill into harbour; would still feel better with saltwater.
Hydrostor has numerous projects in development: U.S./Aus./Can.& Chile. Up to 500 MW providing 5 GigaWattHour storage! Video and PDF @ http://www.hydrostor.ca
Old tunnels in hill easily sealed. Sheer volume may be enough that they not need to be one large "cavern." Windmills are no less attractive than oil tanks with corporate advertising. Some wind turbines would be out of sight over the brow anyway. The sight of renewable energy is a beautiful thing to many and I have never understood wind turbines termed "eyesore." Are something to be proud of, a badge of modernity and maturity, a beacon on a hill, a shining example for smelly places with filthy air to aspire to and say: "if that tiny little city can do it, why can't we?" The reason for South Side Hills is proximity to existing excavated space & higher elevation=more constant wind, more energy/sq.ft, more potential energy overall for investment. Physical properties of a tunnel system could produce increased air velocity if passing through progressively narrower passages in discharge. Various efficiencies might be realized in storage system the greater the depth from surface generation to compressed air chamber. Would be good anywhere offgrid with diesel/wind near abandoned mine. St. Lawrence with its 27 MW of wind power on the south side of town and the active mine just on the North side of the town if ever any unused excavated space. If needed again could stop using: it's just compressed air. This tech only makes sense with excess renewable energy. Rain/meltwater spilling over hydro dam, consistently released into spillway losing potential energy. College-N.Atl. researches tidal energy up the road in Lord's Cove.
I seem to remember there's a small NL Power hydro plant just on the North side of St. Lawrence too, 1 of 5 on the Beautiful Burin Peninsula.
Well anon 18:43, you are largely preaching to the converted here. Are you sending your proposals to Nalcor? If not, why not?
I don't know what a Prudence or Julia or Rocky Racoon review would accomplish! Would your "equitable" plan raise rates on the Avalon to 30 cents kWh? That would solve the problem by depopulating the Avalon!
Excerpt below from my 08 January 2014 http://www.vision 2041.com post.
Also see the graphic just above my 08 January 2014 post, which shows that by 2009 there had been a significant off-Avalon to Avalon load shift:—
A "system/distribution" problem?
This power shortage (rolling blackouts, etc.) seems more and more like a "system" distribution/capacity problem, rather than a generation shortage problem —– in short, little or no proper planning, upgrading and maintenance in response to the shift in demand from western/central NL to the Avalon..
Nalcor's Planning document (section 3, System Capability) states — "Hydro is the primary supplier of system capability to the Island Interconnected System, accounting for 78 percent of its net (generation) capacity…." …….. 78 % of 1,958 MW (our island NET generation capacity) is 1,548.3 MW . ….. So is this the capacity limit (nominally, 1,550 MW) that Nalcor's Dawn Daley was concerned about? …. Over the last 12 year period (for half of those years) the total island peak demand was about 1,600 MW (way above our recent peaks — without incident).
But much of that historical peak was due to high "industrial" load in western and central NL (so our distribution capacity on the Avalon was required to handle a lower share of the load).
Now, that load has shifted to the Avalon. The total island demand has not increased, but merely shifted to an area (the Avalon) where Nalcor/NL Hydro has failed to upgrade our distribution/capacity network.
WHY? — Poor, inadequate planning, insufficient upgrading and maintenance.
Accordingly, there is no need for Muskrat, whose purpose is supposedly to replace Holyrood's GENERATION capacity, but with an even more UNRELIABLE 1,400 kilometer extension cord (distribution system).
With Muskrat — will we be going from bad to WORSE?
Someone should be fired.
Well put Maurice. More than someone fired, Nalcor must be dismantled.
Townies vs. Baymen. Yes, maybe the distinction should be based on what power rates you pay. A new definition. But I have said before that muskrat was developed primiliary for those living on the Avalon. Now, people from Grandfalls, Gander and Corner Brook and maybe a few other larger towns have always cringed at the word of calling them Baymen. No Baymen here buddy, we have indoor toilets and paved driveways. Oh yes and curbs too. They say you can take the boy from the bay, but not the other way around. Well Gander did just that, by taking the word Bay out of Gander Bay. Now some real townies, believe that Conception Bay South, the second largest municipality in the province is around the Bay, or Baymen being almost a 20 minute drive to downtown St. John's. So it us very difficult to get everyone to agree on the definition of townies and Baymen or Bayladies. So I say lets get the new definition based on what power rates you pay says joe blow.
Otto Tucker had the definition down cold, Joe. Enjoy his book.
Hear, hear on Otto Tucker: any book recommended. People in Petty Harbour/Maddox Cove are proud baymen and would fight tooth and nail if St. John's ever wanted to laughably offer them water/sewer/road building/maintenance and snowplowing services. They have been settling Goulds for centuries & they know what it's like in the supposed city that takes your tax money no matter if you're still on a well and septic and have no sidewalks on the main street after how many decades now after being promised all of the above?
I don't fully see the point of all the semantics, but St. John's is in Freshwater BAY, Corner Brook is just one community at the head of the BEAUTIFUL _BAY_ of Islands (which is just as breathtaking as Gros Morne and north).
Does anyone think Dwight and Bill and going to mitigate anything?
One brief meeting went sour, apparently, with unscheduled future talks promised.
A last minute, Hail Mary scheme, full of promises and some hastily convened numbers that won't work, about four days before the election is what I expect.
Meanwhile the wasteful baseboard heating crowd, living in oversized homes on the Avalon, get rate mitigation:-)
From the "Heart and soul of a former Bayman".
Why should the rest of Canada pay to mitigate NL power rates?
I am glad I am not the only one who thinks it is madness to encourage wasteful consumption Robert.
just what we need…more division. let us come together to take back our province? I fear its too late…engulfed by the haves. RIP NF, you were never meant for the working class. 🙁
Why stop at different rates for power? Why don’t we calculate how much it costs to bring government services to each and every community?
If we were to go down that road I think you would find that the people living on the Avalon would come out ahead, imagine having to pay the full bill for ferries going back and forth to the Island communities, or paying for schools that are under utilized. We wouldn’t be long before the outports would be empty.
We are in this Muskrat fiasco together because of unscrupulous and unprincipled politicians. I think that we need to stand side by side and figure our way out of it, trying to skip out on the bill before it comes due isn’t in anyone’s best interest.
Nor will it succeed. Well put Terry.
There is no point trying to distribute the total burden created by MF. No matter how you do it, there is not enough money in NL to pay for it. Bailout, bankrupty and loss of sovereignty are the only way out.
Bingo! But the LinCons want to ensure we are drained dry first before recognizing this fact.
Or declare independence, default on the debt, negotiate treaties with other countries, let China invest in the offshore oil, insist all fish within 200 miles be processed here, become a Hong Kong of the north Atlantic. Becoming radical is an option. We don't have to lose sovereignty, we could gain it. We could also disturb a lot of **** and jail some folks.
I'm all for any approach that will relieve NL politicians of the power to make any decisions regarding the fiscal management of the province.
These partisan idiots and dodgy hacks and enablers are entirely incapable of competently managing the affairs of the province in any way that protects the interests of those who elected them.
The sooner these bloody fools and raiding skeets are booted out of power and a commission of government installed the better.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but leaving Canada will not make us the Hong Kong of North Atlantic, but rather it will return us to our 1930's trajectory as Haiti of North Atlantic.
How come PlanetNL isn't a sitting board member on the PUB?
Or at least an advisor/consultant to the PUB??
MQO is doing a poll on the reputation of NL Power, and then also asked, among other questions, to rank the reputation of NL Hydro, then Nalcor, then Bell Alliant.
That seemed to be the main purpose of the poll (not much, very little, questions of substance)
Surely a perfect example of talking out of both sides of your mouth at the same time.
From NOIA today:
As Long As The World Uses Oil, It Might As Well Be NL Oil: Ball
From VOCM News
The following text was excerpted from the media outlet cited on April 8, 2019 and is provided to Noia members for information purposes only. Any opinion expressed therein is neither attributable to nor endorsed by Noia.
Premier Dwight Ball says the province continues to look for new ways to reduce emissions, but as long as the world wants oil, they’ll be pushing for offshore exploration.
The province is intending to double oil and gas production by 2030, despite a recent report showing Canada bearing the brunt of climate change, warming twice as fast as the rest of the world.
Ball spoke with Paddy Daly on VOCM Open Line and agreed that climate change was a major issue, but added that the world will be still be using oil for the foreseeable future, so they might as well be using oil from Newfoundland and Labrador.
Premier Ball says NL oil has 50 per cent less carbon intensity than the global average, so more offshore exploration in the province is what is needed.
He says the province is continuing to work with heavy carbon emitters to try and offset those emissions and reduce greenhouse gases by investing in and working with other, greener, industries.
Tors, yes was listening to paddy and ball on VOCM too yesterday morning and of course Cardigan kicked in too a former head of NOIA to ask a couple of questions. And if you were to ask people of this province or any other province or country the answer would be the same, so we all talk from both sides of our mouth. Just asks the Ameeicans, Russians, Saudis, Venezeula, Norweigans and others the answer would be the same. It's like NIMBY. But if the fact is that carbons are 50 to 60 percent less in the little bit of oil we produce on the global market, then, doesn't it make sense? As for Canada warming twice as fast as the rest of the world, well there is not much ice melting in the Middle East, last time an ice berg was seen there was in the last ice age. And if they were talking ice melt in the Arctic that includes a lot more than what Canada owners. More than a dozen countries are claiming ownership of the melting ice in the Arctic. We sometimes compare our carbon foot print to others. I would compare my carbon foot print to any of the Saudi princess any day, or the rich class of India and China as well. Saudi probably has as many sheiks as our entire polulation. Now, I also know that the very poor of India, and maybe China as well as other countries with Hugh populations have a negative foot print, if there is any such thing, as they survive on the garbage of their countries. So it s not as simple as ball bad, Canada bad, or talking from both sides of their mouth says Joe blow.
Characteristics of the mentality of all heads of petro states; exploit the stuff until we expire. Moe, Notley, Ball, Kenney, Horgan, Palliser, Ford, Trump, and all.
Some our workforce, who went West, caught the disease of the Alberta Mind.
Robert don't forget Moe, Notley, Ball, Kenney, Horgan, Palliser, Ford, Trump, all claim their shit smells less than 60% of the world!
Excellent question asked by David Vardy at Nalcor AGM a few minutes ago. In response, Stan Marshall elaborated on the silly cost of the new transmission lines and also admitted we are going to be paying over 50 cents per kwh for Muskrat energy.
Say it isn’t so! 50 cents!!!
Stan must be off his meds or he is trying to get us accustomed to the old 23 cents number.
Double the price and offer a 50 percent discount, an old retail trick.
Not to worry. Stan is on a lucrative short term contract. In White House parlance, he is the current "Acting CEO". Following his own payout, who gives a shit about the "shareholders"?
So, is that 67 cents (including the 17.4 cents for transmission costs}? And that 67 cents has to be blended with our existing 12 cents energy?
Even better. A buck a kWh. And, don’t forget the fucking HST-another 15 cents.
I gave up smokes when they hit a dollar a pack , ca 1973.
Going to see if the condo crowd will go for a communal outdoor bbq kitchen.
And allow kerosene lamps inside units.
Going to invest in space blankets and down items.
I am already 100 percent led lighting
Just won’t turn them on
Higher risk Power Utilities do have to fess up, eventually, about insurance claims involving failed system components; I presume that ratepayers in NL know the extent that shortfalls in such claims, may affect power rates;
Missed the webcast of the AGM. It said 10;30 to 12:00, but at 11:30 it was all over. So I scan about 20 of the 190 page report….full of self serving info.
Nfld Hydro has 89 % of satisfied customers…….so most all must not be watching the Inquiry, nor aware of the boondoggle, nor of the take or pay contract.
Naclor's profit is about 190 Million. So does this mean after revenue from the offshore, revenue from Churchill Falls, less expenses for all, including MFs, that it has a profit of 190 Million. If so , this means all this revenue of billions produces only enough to pay about 1/4 of the approx 750 million a year needed for MFs, once the power kicks in, in 2020.?
And to ……MFs is an asset I assume on the books for 12.7 billion, but worth about 1-2 billion. So, when does the writedown occur on those assets that produces a major loss for Nalcor?
The report references the new Reliability study, and new assets needed ;gas turbines, etc , maybe wind, even some solar hove in as a bone for Bruno. Customer demand management is mentioned, so this is CDM right ? It is CDM Newfie style……another Newfie joke, mostly, as it DOES NOT mean
Conservation Demand Management. Only in Nfld can they feel assured of fooling the people on a continuous basis. You know: fool me once, not so bad, but don't try to fool me twice. But approach to planning is all new and fine the report says, as they have "consulted with a customer" feed back panel, most I assume know less than even Bruno on cost effective measures. And it says they can hear from the panel going forward…….hear but not heed. Hear and ignore.
Meanwhile MFCCC is denied input as a intervenor. So too any representation from the many businesses in energy efficiency for customers. Expect more duct tape and plastic window wrap and LED light shit.
But…..a EV pilot project. I joke,that only pilots are allowed to drive EVs.
Meanwhile in Norway, with lots of Hydro power like we have, 40% of all new cars are Evs. Here they have a pilot project, for what,, to see if an EV can get from Water Street to Signal Hill?!. They did a pilot study project for minisplits a few years ago that was useless, by their own words.Now last year 10,000 homes converted, but not one cent of incentive from the power companies. Hydro and Nfld Power should be denied to undertake pilot projects, being proven incompetent repeatedly, all to delay progress, and all on the dime of the ratepayers.
So that is after 20 pages. And safety is first, lowest cost power is last, as to priority
I asked this question to Nalcor AGM
.Are both DC lines from Labrador and Nova Scotia terminating at Soldiers Pond now converting DC voltage to AC 60 cycle power and synchronizing with our isolated system.I do not have the answer yet.Can you help.
Both lines are not terminating at Soldiers Pond. Only the Labrador line comes to Soldiers Pond. The line to NS goes from central Nfld, converts to DC then on to NS. So two separate DC lines, the stations for conversion about 300 miles from each other. So Labrador power cannot go directly to NS, only our island power goes. The difference is significant.
The line to NS was synchronized first and has imported power at times from NS, coal fired. I am not sure if any power at all has flowed to NS, except maybe during commissioning. If Not, why? I suspect not permitted to export as not deemed reliable to North American standards, yet? This a spectulation, maybe someone can answer?
The Ladrador line is delivering about 45 MW only when available, from CFs power. The DC line is 2 conductor, and can operate on one. I am not sure if both conductors are operating. Perhaps others can clarify. There is issues with GE as to control and so delaying higher power transfer, as it may trigger a shut down of our whole system, so wanting to avoid that in winter, my understanding.
Short answer is that the DC to AC conversion stations guarantee excellent synchronization with the isolated island grid. Stan's answer was properly based on the fact that the island never needs to be synchronized with the North American grid because the DC links make the issue non-existent.
If you are asking how well it is working, the answer is that the ML seems to be doing what it should although high power is yet to be tested. The LIL has been much more problematic with testing one half the circuit so far. Confidence that it runs better next winter may be misplaced. Expect Holyrood to be full bore for a while yet.
The only question is; what do we do with the bloody buggers, idiots (fools, halfwits, dolts, imbeciles, morons) traitors and treasonist ask Joe blow.
Here is the details of Nalcor pilot project for EVs:
Location of project: Town of Churchill Falls
Number of EVs: 1
Operator: Town manager.
Purpose : test under -40C winter temperatures.
Quebec I think have some 25,000 EVs and gearing up for 100,000
Synapse suggests EVs for the island to use excess MFs power. Marshall says excess power likely to go to NS. Guess the plan is to green the NS transport system, while we continue on with high cost dirty fossil fuel for transport.
Is Nfld Power doing a pilot project? WHy any pilot project…..just roll out the charging infrastructure and rebates to match the Fed 5000.00.
Would anyone care to clarify ( or was it explained by Marshall at the AGM) what is meant by "intergration risks" beyond fist power that could mean higher costs beyond 12.7 billion?
Bruno Marcocchio10 April 2019 at 09:47
At the Nalcor AGM Stan Marshall gets my vote for the biggest pile of steaming bullshit with this statement,
"Marshall said a potential change in contractors was "contemplated" when he gave his last cost and schedule update in mid-2017.
"The transition has gone smoothly," said Marshall."
Bruno Marcocchio10 April 2019 at 10:03
Winston see what Con Edison is doing testing battery storage. See the future!
New York utility Con Edison is testing a commercial business model where it calls the shots and the customer simply hosts the battery.
Really, as usual you are a fountain of misinformation – but as is your mantra, never let facts bother you.
Keep abreast of current events (or at least 3 year old events) – the possibility of Astaldi walking or being replaced is 2016 news:
Bruno : greentechmedia, while interesting, is like Fox News. Greentech is mostly PR, solike Ed Martin for Nalcor, and now Stan Marshall, as to reliable sources. You ignore other sources such as batteries makes up less than 1 % os storage as compared to pumper hydro storage. Compressed air storage has merit as another comment indicated . So bor batteries, you have aone tract mind.
PS….did you delete your comment on CDM that was posted and disappeared?
As to the future…….that is a long time frame, poor economics can sink you fast, like MFs.
It seems apparent that Energy Planning is in the wrong hands, in NL. Get Government, (NALCOR, etc.) out of the equation. Draw up a more Public Commission to Plan for Sustainable Development.
Like Fox news??? you are in deep denial Winston Con Ed is one of the leading utilities doing research. Sounds like you would rather fly with Stan. Good luck!
Have you read this from "Fox"??? Propaganda Huh?? You are hopeless and will not learn. Too bad.
No Winston I did not delete. it must have been "edited".
You are correct Robert.
But I see no sign that government (or any political party) is prepared to take and create a more rational/cohesive approach to Energy/Sustainable Development Planning.
I believe in the power of concerned citizens. Look what you and others have accomplished, working with the enlightened people on the Blog; Start such a movement to spread the word on Climate Change Action. Did you know that St. John's has appointed a CCA Coordinator?. All progressive movements start in the neighbourhood community. Protest ineffective Government action. Empower the citizen.
Bruno , Con Ed is testing batteries like Stan is testing EVs: 1 car in CFs, where the Avalon is the main market for usinng surplus MFs power for EVs, and avg winter nite time is -8.6 C not -40, as Stan prefers. So Stan is shooting shit with that pilot, as is ConEd and you are a mouthpiece for both.
Con Ed is to install four – 1 MW h batteries. If installed in St John's and we lose the 800MW DC infeed, such a 1 MWh battery would supply the loss of load for 5 seconds if my arithmetic is right. FIVE SECONDS! Foe MUN maybe a few minutes.
Power companies and oil companies who present a false green face, use such puff pieces to deceive the uninformed and people who cannot do arithmetic or are easily fooled by BS. Such a person you are as to promote uptake and cost effectiveness of batteries at present.
So where do you see me aligned with Stan.
Nfld Hydro and Nfld power do useless pilots and now proposing more:
1 EV car
100MWh battery maybe ( 20 times bigger than the Con Ed pilot)
2 solar installations, one for Gander , one for Labrador city, so you and Stan seemed aligned for miniboondoggles, unless the PUB denies it.
Bruno and Stan aligned…this really funny, and you suggests I am aligned with Stan. I am more aligned with Synapse than Stan, but Synapse proposed neither batteries nor solar, so Stan tossed you a bone, and you are like a rockwhiler, so LOL as anyone can see.
Con Ed wants to download everyone to have their own backup, So do the arithmetic on the wall packs……..Wood back makes more sense, as Robert says.
I am hopeless and never learn you say…….28000 minisplits now installed in Nfld , well over 100,000 in NS. How many Tesla Wall pacs?
Holyrood fuel reduced about 1/3 last year, part due to minisplit uptake no doubt……..now enough of these to see impact, as I predicted…….as I saw the future in 2012. Even MA installe done and helping to offset fuel at Holyrood, as too Russell at the Telly. As this rate, fewer gas turbines will be needed. Stan, and NP just has to align with me, but may not, but AJs and Janes will align with me,and PlanetNL,, with Synapse, we are aligned……not sure where our CA is , or the PUB will be. We need an independent EE , as UG stated in 2012. Never did see you call for that. Why not? Why have you never praised ENS for their success?
I think mini splits are the future for cutting consumption. Of what use are they when you have the next Dark NL?
You don't get the "thousand points of light" in the future of supply. All those battery packs make the system unbreakable. That would never do in NL eh Winston???
You just can't get through that head of yours that batteries do more than back up an outage… they PREVENT them and BALANCE load in REAL TIME to earn extra MONEY!
Get it Winston?
Winston I forgot to mention they are now used to shave the peak for large industrial users to again save LOTS OF MONEY every month even when there is no disruption.
I get it,and they are of little cost effective solution for Nfld at present, and the near future. Synapse or others may do the detail analysis,to add to my view, rather than just your word Bruno.
A couple of years ago you ridiculed minisplits, recall, now you jump on the bandwagon.
As Robert says, no system is unbreakable, even, I suggest mother earth climate stability .
Cost effective analysis for CDM involves some one dozen or more of good cost effective measure, (of some 500 uses of electricity) and see which is best. In 2014 ICF said for Nfld Minisplits are best, Synapse in 2018 suggest similar, so these experts are a bit late to the table, and you acknowledge it in 2018/2019, so you are not very visionary.
I will try you on a riddle.
Bruno does not understand arithmetic it is obvious, but also does not understand the meaning of the word F_C_.
What is my meaning? Can you fill in the missing letters. Others may take a shot at that.
For the record I have NEVER dissed mini splits! The rest of your "response" is gibberish.
Bruno….maybe Winston just means FACE…says Joe.
Bruno, you NEVER dissed minisplits;
DISS: to speak disrespectfully to or criticize,contempt, insult, to put-down.
Bruno, during my postings on UG on monitoring results effectiveness of mini-splits posted, as I recall, you posted: "Winston, you should run for office and offer A chicken in every pot, and a minisplit in every attic" (likely not the exact words). Was that a diss by you Bruno, of me and minisplits?
As to the rest you call gibberish, that also is a diss.
I state 4 or 5 facts, you call it gibberish.Need I repeat each of them?
The last, the riddle, you also call gibberish.
Here is the answer: the word you do not understand the meaning of is FACT…..you could not guess the 2 missing letters.
That you do not acknowledge my facts from gobberish proves you do not understand the meaning of the word fact.
You posted recently that no one has ever discredited your facts.
This because you state few if any facts, most all opinions.
Robert says there is no such thing as an unbreakable system (or was it electrical system)…….this is gibberish of fact?
That earths climate stability is breakable…….you deny this is fact, just gibberish? You had an environmentalist halo just a day or so ago with your rant, ….what happened?
Check the ICF and Synapse report to see if I stated fact or gobberish, and too for the rest I said.
Dissing people and opinion of others is your trademark Bruno, and sometimes I may do it, where warranted, and maybe I over do it. But you are king of dissing. You call it speaking truth to power, but if your truth lacks facts, there is little truth. You are much like Trumpie, today dissing Washington's Mt Vernon house to the French President; where would Washington be if not for the French assistance……hung, as Franklin suggested. Even my wife hearing this says Trump is a real idiot. He is the USA champion of dissing. world class disser.
That was so funny I dissed my pants Winston.
A system with producer/consumers with Powerwalls and cars, fully charged, plugged in the system works like the net or "interweb" Winston. Problems are circumvented and the system is self healing. Comprende??
I commended Synapse for suggesting EVs, and also commented that fully charged EVs could assist to backfeed a grid. When did you join the choir so that I would comprende it? You were silent, I expect, on Synapse, because they were silent on batteries and solar. You imagine many things Bruno, I wonder why. Soon you will say you were the author of the Lord's Prayer. I think Stan suggests Nalcor is the author of Liberty and Synapse recommendations, which is also a laugh.
Power wall and car batteries are not a cheap alternate to island 3 cent power costs, nor to 4 cent wind or 2-3 cent CDM, so schemes as you suggest is not cost effective, but you ignore facts and arithmetic.
If you find your ignorance to facts as funny, this says much as you have dissed Dave Vardy, Des Sullivan, and most everyone, often without justification. Yet , there are occasional sparks of wisdom in your postings.
I would miss you if not present, so cheers, and try and avoid the Wacki backy, and get the good one if it exists.
By the way,cost effectiveness of long distance transmission was determined to be 4300 miles for DC and 2500 miles for AC, but lines are always much shorter . Transmission losses and reliability are factors. I doubt of HQ will disable their 765 Kv system soon, replaced by batteries. MFs is in a class by itself, except for batteries would be similar boondoggle.
But ok, you must be right, Stan has them in his bag of tools now. Your buddy, Stan. That makes me smile.And too your support of the 1 % merchants of St John's and church that opposed Confederation that was a blessing to rural Nfld. A wolf in sheep's clothing? Another small turn and you will praise Danny Willaims as a visionary.
No Winston, you non comprende!
Observe carefully what happens when the power grid fails, (Quebec), and baseboard heated housing has no backup system. No electrical system is 100% reliable in our latitudes. What should one do, to protect and maintain one's lifestyle? My 85 year old friend Pistol Pete in St. Jovite, chopped wood last Fall, and feeds his wood/hot water boiler, and is toasty warm in his Laurentian manor.
This story by Michael Harris documents why Junior had no business demanding JRW grant SNC a DPA.
Robert I use a wood stove and have a propane kitchen stove. Both can be lifesavers in a prolonged outage. They also bring peace of mind in these times of violent climate extremes.
Thanks WA for the info on synchronizing.But now i am wondering if we will be paying wheeling rights to Nova Scotia Emera when sending free power. Emera now owns percentage of Hydro lines.
Today we hear our Minister of Justice announce a new jail to be built, but says this is NOT related to the election. If Ches had his Honesty act in plane, Parsons would be convicted, unless as KD said, telling the truth to the public is the cardinal rule of politicians.
This large investment is to start in 2022, about 3 years from now. Will the 800 Million original cost for Corner Brook be a reality by then, promised repeatedly for about a decade by Tom Marshall?
3 years to start, for the jail….
Consider this project, as Nflders played a part , I think, many from Avondale area?
On March 17, 1931 the first steel was placed for the Empire State building in New York. They erected about 4.5 floors a week, and on one stretch did 14 floors in 10 days. By June 20 the steel structure was up to the 26 th floor 86 floors up by Sept 19, and the mast at 102 nd floor by Nov21, at 1045 ft high. When the steel was at the 95 floor , the outer walls was at the 75 th floor. The building opened on May 31, 1931, 13.5 months after the first steel. During construction there were cafes on 5 of the unfinished floors so that workers did not have to decend to the ground floor for lunch. There were 3500 workers at the peak. It was budgeted at 60 million , completed for 41 million. Like Muskrat, components came from other countries, but most USA made. The price included demolishing the old Waldorf Astoria, to make room for the building. The American Society of civil engineers called it one of the 7 modern wonders of the world.
Just this week someone posted on facebook colored photos of the steel riggers, most Nflders, I think. Their skills, at heights, from the days of sailing vessels.Perhaps some day UG could post the pictures as a salute to what Nfld workers could do.
We have seen the evidence of MFs mismanagement.We have seen several elections on promises of the Corner Brook hospital, being fake news.
Now we hear of a big expensive modern jail to start…..not this summer, but in 3 years time. And how long to finish? Imagine if we had the wealth to build a 102 floor skyscraper…….what would be the cost and time to complete. Our Leblanc Inquiry now, mostly legal fees, is almost equal to the cost of the Empire State building. Sure inflation make a difference, but still, Stan says MFs is a now a good project, did he go that far?
Cardinal Rule: no lying to the public!
Perhaps, if justice was straight, the jail will have MFs scallywags at the first occupants?
Yeah, just like the new hospital for Corner Brook these pathetic assholes have been announcing over and over for the last decade…
Nothing but a bunch of useless twits in cheap suits.
Now now, Dwight’s suits are NOT cheap.