Is anyone surprised that the latest MQO Poll places both the
Liberals (44%) and the Tories (42%) in (possibly) a statistical tie? While
neophyte PC Party leader Ches Crosbie has had an uninspiring start, which — for
the Tories — aligns well with a non-performing Government, why would the public
be in anything but a “show me” mood? 

The Premier’s approval numbers testify to the legitimacy of
the questions. MQO gives Ball’s leadership a “relatively steady… mean score of
5.2 [on a 10 point scale] this quarter”. Crosbie, in spite of his inability to
light any fires, oversees a jump in support of 7% as the NDP races to the
status of non-entity. 

MQO comments that declining support for the NDP reflects in
the Tories’ gain, but that is tantamount to suggesting change in the chemistry
of oil and water. More likely, a pervasive leadership vacuum is adding room for
fluctuation in the popularity of the two traditional Parties, it being left to
both mainstream and social media to set the public agenda based on whatever
passes as news.

The Poll also squelches talk of a Spring visit by the Premier
to the Lieutenant Governor. Aside from the Liberals’ poor performance, MQO
reports that 44% of residents felt that their outlook for the province had
worsened over the past three months, against only 10% who thought it had gotten
better. This is not indicative of a Liberal “bump” occurring any time soon. A
timid Liberal Caucus will want better evidence before risking dissolution of
the House of Assembly. 

Pundits and pollsters could engage in prattle over the urban
vs. rural divide, advancing the thesis that the Liberals “own” the districts
west of the Isthmus, and the Tories the Avalon.

Three by-elections wins on the north-east Avalon, including
Crosbie’s convincing return of the riding held by former Liberal Finance
Minister Cathy Bennett, support only half the narrative. But proof from rural
NL eludes. Bear in mind that MQO combines two arguably distinct categories of
voters: “decided” and “leaning”. If you were paying for the data, its value is
little more than a feel-good exercise, especially if the questions(s) that
attempt to gauge “undecided” voters who are “leaning”
towards one Party or another, does not include sufficient redundancy.

The MQO Poll puts the “undecided” vote at a
considerably high 40%. The margin of error at +/- 5.2% isn’t exactly small
either.  In short, without the
availability of a full data set from this Poll, province-wide, the “decided” vote
for the Liberals or the Tories could be less than 30%. For the Premier, who has
to make the decision on whether to “pull the plug”, that is not a
support level suggestive of “fortress” Liberal” east or west. There is much uncertainty here for any Premier.

If the political climate in NL was as polarized as it could be, a different analysis might result. But, as a politician, the Premier is a klutz, making the next question essential. It is this: 

Why are the Liberals in such a
poor electoral position against a PC Party whose decisions have wreaked havoc on the public
treasury and, therefore, on the provision of publicly-funded programs and
services, possibly for decades? 

Flat-footedness over Muskrat, the inability of either the
Premier or the Minister of Natural Resources to articulate credible knowledge
of the problems it has caused or how to address the threat of 23 cent/kWh
electricity, contributes to public bafflement.  

While no group in the province has volunteered to take the
“hit” in pursuit of fiscal probity, by the same token the public are not
stunned enough to think that a solution in the form of a “magic bullet” is

Underlying the public’s sense of bewilderment are, I believe,
three discernible conditions which are influencing public attitudes right now,
causing a high percentage of “Undecided” in Polls such as the most
recent MQO Poll and giving the Premier, and likely Ches Crosbie, too, a poor assessment. They are:

1.         Evasion of
responsibility by the two main Parties. The Liberals understand the province’s
financial situation but downplay its consequences, worried as they are that
real leadership will exact a huge political price. They want a second term. The
PCs refuse acknowledgment of their culpability and are content to play into the
false narrative. Absurd is that the Liberals actually make the Tories look —
let’s not overstate it — as respectable as the Polls indicate.

2.         Mindless drift.
Pick any issue and the Liberals exhibit no capacity for how the public
discussion relates in each case. Who can name an accomplishment, or even just
their priorities?  

When public policy decisions should manifest cohesion in the
face of a serious structural deficit, overwhelming debt, Muskrat-related
issues, unemployment, as well as matters social and demographic, there is no
plan except the singular hope that higher oil prices will intervene. 

A promised balanced Operating Budget by fiscal 2022-23 is unlikely,
causing even the Auditor-General to express concern, as did the last one —
though not loudly enough. With no ideas of their own, the Government continues
to embrace Danny Williams’ “energy warehouse” concept, now giving the Oil and Gas
Division of Nalcor separate corporate status, when it should be sold. 

Renegotiation of the Atlantic Accord is underway with the
Government of Canada. Imagine that the matter doesn’t even warrant a public discussion
of the principles guiding the Ball Administration in this risky process! What
goes through their minds, if anything? The industry is more vital than ever;
yet the Ball Government seems oblivious to the capacity of the Feds to diminish
the powers a former federal government shared following years of Federal/Provincial
wars in the 70s and 80s. How quickly we forget! 

In each of those areas, Tory Leader Ches Crosbie has made no
contribution unless you count the letter to the Editor by Ferryland MHA, Keith
Hutchings only this past Saturday in the Telegram (notwithstanding the additional cheque from the Feds, it neglects to note the
temerity of Danny Williams’ having insisted on an automatic review).

Knowing how weak the Premier is, Crosbie doesn’t even warn the public that the Liberals may
be too willing to subvert the Province’s interests to a Federal Liberal agenda.
Ball should be advised to be one with the moral authority of an informed
public. Likely, neither leader understands the risks involved in subjecting the Atlantic Accord to renegotiation. Its bad enough that Ball and co., possessing the clout of the Accord, still managed to give away shop away the shop in pursuit of the proposed Bay du Nord project. 

3.         The third
issue contributing to general public cynicism and mistrust of the Liberals can
be described as low-grade spin. Every statement issued from government is
hatched. Their communications is a farce. Worryingly, the stuff is often
written not by the politicians or their political staff but by bureaucrats. 

Whether it’s the Liberals’ development strategy, “The Way Forward”,
the Budget deficit, rate mitigation, local benefits associated with the Bay du
Nord (see Turning Good News Into Disbelief) or others having lesser import, the narrative is twisted and spun to an
extent that the truth is a perversion. Adding another couple of billion onto
our large debt is parsed by the Finance Minister as a “balanced approach”. The
Premier receives public derision over his assertion that rate mitigation will
not be on the backs of either the “ratepayer or the taxpayer”, yet he invokes
that baloney again and again. Indeed, if “The Way Forward” is infused with so
many good ideas, why did the Government hire McKinsey Consulting and spend $1
million to find ways to diversify the economy?

Did the Liberals come to power with not a single arrow in
their quiver? Does Ches Crosbie offer even less? Does either Ball or Crosbie
think the public are mindless when it comes to public policy or long-term
thinking? Or, are they both scared as hell to open up that Pandora’s Box? 

The public may not be over-represented by policy wonks, but the
notion that the whole body politic does not have an ear for issues that matter
to them is terribly unwise. 

The MQO Poll may have recorded another Quarter in which voter
sentiment, especially towards the Liberals, has flat-lined. But if the public
tires of being disrespected, rather than wondering what will curry their
favour, the Party Leaders should worry if anyone will vote.  

Des Sullivan
Des Sullivan
St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador, Canada Uncle Gnarley is hosted by Des Sullivan, of St. John's. He is a businessman engaged over three decades in real estate management and development companies and in retail. He is currently a Director of Dorset Investments Limited and Donovan Holdings Limited. During his early career he served as Executive Assistant to Premier's Frank D. Moores (1975-1979) and Brian Peckford (1979-1985). He also served as a Part-Time Board Member on the Canada-Newfoundland Labrador Offshore Petroleum Board (C-NLOPB). Uncle Gnarley appears on the masthead representing serious and unambiguous positions on NL politics and public policy. Uncle Gnarley is a fiscal conservative possessing distinctly liberal values and a non-partisan persusasion. Those values and opinions underlie this writer's views on NL's politics, economy and society. Uncle Gnarley publishes Monday mornings and more often when events warrant.


Bill left public life shortly after the signing of the Atlantic Accord and became a member of the Court of Appeal until his retirement in 2003. During his time on the court he was involved in a number of successful appeals which overturned wrongful convictions, for which he was recognized by Innocence Canada. Bill had a special place in his heart for the underdog.

Churchill Falls Explainer (Coles Notes version)

If CFLCo is required to maximize its profit, then CFLCo should sell its electricity to the highest bidder(s) on the most advantageous terms available.


This is the most important set of negotiations we have engaged in since the Atlantic Accord and Hibernia. Despite being a small jurisdiction we proved to be smart and nimble enough to negotiate good deals on both. They have stood the test of time and have resulted in billions of dollars in royalties and created an industry which represents over a quarter of our economy. Will we prove to be smart and nimble enough to do the same with the Upper Churchill?


  1. Maybe it is all part of the plan. Leaders of parties are pre-chosen to protect powerful interests, interests that currently profit from the way things are. Neither political party is willing to disturb the status quo so the debt fueled party will go on until we can't pay the interest. At that point, the public will have been fleeced down the a bare hide. There are many government employees that don't want change either because they realize massive layoffs are inevitable and like a game of musical chairs, there aren't enough jobs to go around and it only gets worse.

  2. Well, I have to admit for the first time, in reading a post I am stumped, puzzled, no not boiling, but my thinking gallops off in all directions, nothing straight lined as it normally does or at least in a general direction. There are so many tacks one could take with no particular designation or point in mind to be made. But guess that is right in line with twiddle de and twiddle dumb, ball et al, and chess and his best. Not one concrete clue between the eyes and ears of both of then combined. But hang on now, we put them there, and then like the ground hog we peep out in February and go underground for another 12 months. Just wait and see attitude. I think what the people want is two premiers, one can't do the job, and we can't trust either. So, the people want her split right down the middle, in terms of seats and population, that is, the townie gets to rule the Avalon, and the bay man gets to rule her west of the Avalon. Paddy might like that. Now let's see how else we can devy her up. Muskrat was developed for the Avalon, we needed the power, the rest of the province had lots of power, wood and using oil mostly. So we give the Avalon premier muskrat to look after, and since all govt offices are on the isthmus too, he will take that, and the public service, MUN etc. and the other premier takes the off shore oil, especially, stove and furnace oil to go along with the wood piles. Now that looks about even to me, or will some balk at that. No, guess as you might say I am not making much scense, but about the same amount of scense as the bosses of the the two premiers, that we are about to elect. I should probably leave it as anonymous, as I am not proud of claiming any credit for writing such foolish taughts, but then again I think it parallels the thinking of the majority of the population. Cheers, and a belated ground hog day, but that's only on the mainland we don't believe in groundhogs and that foolish stuff, Joe blow.

  3. It is a miserable choice that voters are faced with. The Liberals have made MF their own so the lying and collusion with Nalcor continues. The Conservatives have chosen a merchants son for a leader.

    The NDP can't articulate the issues in NL and have yet to ask any kind of intelligent questions about MF.

    The emperor remains above scrutiny and SNC Lavalin remains unchallenged and the "agents" who negotiated the contracts remain unnamed.

    If only anyone in NL has the gonads to ask the obvious questions, now that the SNC fraud in the 2011 period is exposed!

    • Seems a separate law for the fat cats and well connected to be involved in criminal activity and yet not be charged. A company is controlled by its officers and directors. If a company is large, such as banks, SNC or Nalcor, surely they are not too concerned if such a law shields them in their duty to uphold the law and not commit criminal acts. Indeed , even the churches buy insurance for priests should they commits sexual assault against children. This protects the assets of the church in lawsuits, which seems to shield the church and those in authority who had knowledge of the crimes. (I believe, if memory serves, PENG2 on this blog,approved Leblanc's rulings on this in his Mount Cashel case? I stand to be corrected by PENG2, if an error by me)
      For Peckford to say he does not approve of such laws ( despite the USA and Britain using them) is good to see, as Peckford is very right wing, generally, I think.
      The financial meltdown in 2008 could have resulted in another world wide depression like the 1930s. In the USA and Britain, there were activities by banks that should have resulted in criminal charges laid, but wasn't. Part of too big to fail, and seems this is the issue with SNC. Massive public debt was the solution to the 2008 fiasco, which has seen the assets of the fat cats increas 4 fold since then, on the backs of the public, via large governments debt.
      Where is our commentators from Quebec on this issue?
      Bruno brought up the issue of SNC and Nalcor questionable illegalities on this blog several years ago…..has nay main media here questioned it?
      Winston Adams

    • The media is lazy and complicit in the MF/SNC debacle.

      NDP leader just quit bragging she was the first "out" politician. The NDP need to find a leader that is all in. Even a political rookie should be able to call for an investigation on the sole sourced secret contract with SNC Lavalin but they are functionally dead!

    • This change in legislation last fall by the governing federal liberals shows an abuse of power so blatant that it deserves nothing less than a loss of such power in the next federal election. It reminds us of the sponsorship scandal where brown paper bags of taxpayer money was changing hands in restaurants in old Montreal, Mafia style! Wilson Raybauld herself deserves re-election if she refused to agree with the negotiation of SNCLVL's crimes away in this manner.

    • The prior CEO of SNC got off with a slap on the wrist. Yet there were affidavits showing he was involved with bribes in the tens of millions of dollars.
      To let SNC off as to criminal charges, the argument is made that the company, started in 1911, employs 50,000 people , 9000 in Canada. It is suggested criminal charges against the company could destroy the company, and not be eligible for Fed projects for 10 years. Or the company could be bought up by a foreign country.
      What price for criminal activity and no accountability, with mere small fines paid from shareholders.

    • I personally tend to agree with the following approach:

      "Companies FOUND GUILTY of wrongdoing should be hit with massive fines instead of being barred from doing business.

      "Banning them from business and essentially, potentially forcing them into bankruptcy; I don't think we should be looking at that remedy," said Ian Lee, who teaches business strategy and public policy at Carleton University (Ottawa)

      Fines like this can encourage compliance by hitting the company's shareholders and senior executives in their pockets, he said, whereas bankruptcy would mean thousands of workers being laid off."


      (But hey, the hell with those Canadian 9000 jobs! Let's instead rely more on foreign engineer outfits – which might be even more crooked, but who cares right? )


      What do you guys prefer; if SNC is found guilty that the Feds obtains lots of $$$ from those fines, or would you rather deal with (possibly) 9000 well paid job losses?

      Lessons will be given in both, but one incur more job losses…

    • Jobs justifies the sale of light armoured vehicles to Saudi Arabia even if it doesn't sit well with our human rights values. Jobs now justifies being blind to SNC-Lavalin's crimes and they are a big supporter of federal political parties including the liberals. Such are Canadian values and I think it is fitting now that the Trudeau liberals may be on their way down, compliments of an indigenous women who appears to possess better than those Canadian values

    • Greed is the cause. CEOs wanting to double revenues or profits in 5 years, and at any cost it seems, even bribes and corruption.
      This done by top officials, yet long delivering results that pleases all shareholders. Many employees that have no part in this not likely shareholders at all, and innocent.
      This deserves heavy punishment but not destruction of the company.
      Heavy punishment should not permit just a slap on the wrist for those most responsible, and who lobby for favours.
      Compare SNC CEO punishment and Bernie Madoff (jailed for life), and most all of 13 billion recovered for victims!

  4. The thing about politics in Newfoundland these days is that the prize for winning an election is a bucket of shit. Therefore, there's got to be something very wrong with anybody who is willing to run.Therefore, I would have to be a fool to vote for anybody who is willing to run.

    • If you were to force MUN to eliminate most of the admin (keeping the basics like teaching staff / building operations) and then cut government bureaucracy in half (keeping front line workers and a few managers), cut funding to the City (and let them justify their services property taxes), let some roads revert to gravel, charge actual ferry costs (which would force resettlement) etc. we would be well on our way.

      However, it would EXTERMINATE the remaining middle class. Quite the bucket.

    • Well well, Junior acted like an asshole saying Judy Wilson Raybould had not resigned, forcing her to resign and leave shit all over Juniors face.

      Junior is covering for SNC Lavalin despite evidence that Deferred Prosecution Agreements (DPAs) encourage fraud and corruption. There is no disincentive if criminal charges are not laid.

      It only encourages the likes of ExMil to council fraud and corruption, knowing there will be no criminal consequences.

    • I agree with PF comment @08:57 above. Here's some more extracts from the article:

      "We should start thinking about the remedy as being a financial fine, but a very, very large — in the billions — fine for a big, multi-billion-dollar company.

      Fines like this can encourage compliance by hitting the company's shareholders and senior executives in their pockets, he said, whereas bankruptcy would mean thousands of workers being laid off"


      Now, I'm not really sure if some of you (well, Bruno) read the same article, or even bothered to read it at all.

      How a VERY LARGE fine "councils fraud and corruption". Quite the contrary actually.

    • SNC is not the only company in Canada. If they go broke because of corruption other companies that are legitimate will take SNC's place.

      Only one who traffics in fraud and corruption sees DPA's as a way of doing business. No wonder you hide your name to hide your shame Ex Mil.

    • Again, you have no idea what you are talking about.

      Most probable outcome is that SNC will get sold at 10 cents on the dollar. All VPs / senior management (those you want to punish) will get golden parachute , while most of the 9000 Canadian jobs will get moved to lower wage countries… Or worst, straight bankruptcy. Then only the 9000 Canadian employees get shafted – plus all those unpaid Canadian creditors.

      You are the one who be ashamed, putting all the hardship on the employees and letting SNC's management escape for free – or possibly worst, congratulated with golden parachutes…

      But hey, keep spitting absurdities. You have to maintain image, right?

    • You keep counseling fraud and corruption. In your world all the jobs will slide to third world countries. What horseshit!

      DPA's encourage corporate sleaze, see SNC at home and abroad. If you like bribery and corruption as standard business practice DPA's are for you. This is institutionalized corruption only fit for a third world banana republic.

      You, Ex Mil and Junior on the road to hell.

    • Basically it's a choice of:

      1 – Eventually banning SNC from federal contracts for 10 years (IF FOUND GUILTY – we'll know in about two years if we're lucky).

      In the mean time, SNC gets sold for 10 cents on the dollar. Current SNC executives GET GOLDEN parachutes. Assets, contracts & 9000 Canadian jobs get moved abroad for the most part.

      New owner (probably crooked too, who knows) pretends everything has now been cleaned out and nothing is left from previous management. The legal entity named SNC doesn't exist anymore. (or worst, goes bankrupt with 9000 Canadian jobs get lost + unpaid Canadian creditor)

      What do you think will happen with this eventual/possible 10 years ban – if we ever get there??? Exactly…

      And all those SNC executive gets golden parachutes / no penalties. (and probably gets new jobs abroad…)


      2. A very, very large — in the billions — fine for a big, multi-billion-dollar company. Shareholders (which did not ensure proper accountability/oversight, but only cared about profits) will then get nailed. Same for the faulty executives.


      To me, it's pretty obvious which scenario brings the heaviest punishment and disincentive to fraud / corruption. And furthermore doesn't congratulate executives with golden parachutes.

    • Bruno, I think very heavy fines, billions for very large companies, and long jail times for key players, without destroying the company and innocent workers, so much as Ex Mil says.
      If DPAs can't assure that, than it seems bad policy.
      If charging a company for criminal activity that triggers 10 year ban of bidding Fed jobs leads to bankrupcy, then maybe it should be 2 or 3 year ban, that hurts but not destroys them, just a thought.
      As for going to hell, I thought you believed in neither heaven nor hell,(hell where bad souls goes) just karma you said in the past,(what goes around comes around).
      Hell, some say, is one hell of a nasty place, where maybe SNC crooks end up, so ultimate justice. The road to hell is full of twists and turns, and has forks and some u turns. We are all on that kind of road, but some can navigate better than others, to avoid the traps. Of course, an Iron Ring is not a compass to navigate that road. But if hell is highly magnetic, then the Iron Ring could be detrimental, and entraps wayward engineers. No one has ever seen me wear one,and as you may approve, just as a precaution, as some strong force must surely attract souls to hell.
      Maybe Junior has high iron blood, and might get trapped. Trump has one foot in and little chance of escape. Danny Millions thinks he can buy his way out, and who can say for sure. You roll the dice, he said for Muskrat.But to but Ex in that basket, that was a low blow, Bruno, even for you. Check your moral compass.

    • But hey, you also wanted us to believe NL was losing hundreds of $M while exporting CF recall power – due to suppositely "exorbitant" HQ's wheeling fees. And you kept repeating this non-sense ad-nausuem despite evidence to the contrairy. (That was particularly absurd as those exports represented a fraction of those pretended losses to begin with…)

      That's what we can call "horseshit". And you keep producing an industrial amount daily. (La cours est pleine…)

      Plus all the vulgarities and cheap insults.

      I guess your capacity of any meaningfull/intelligent debating is behind you (has it ever existed?)

    • It's tolerated because all of the non sequiturous ravings from Hobo Bruno, Wayne, Waldo/AJ and the rest of the tinfoil hat crowd fit the narrative that MF must be the fault of somebody else besides the NL electorate and their government

    • Not sure if this helps explain: Bruno suggested I read a book written by a writer Hukley. He experimented and wrote about LSD. He also wrote scripts for movies.
      When dying he had his wife inject him with LSD. Bruno says his book can show to expand your mind. LSD was initially concocted by a German, i think, about 1943. He hooked up with a British girl later, still living, and still experimenting with LSD, in England. At one point she drilled a hole in her own skull, which proved unsuccessful for enlightenment. Not sure how much of that Bruno accepts as best practise. It might or might not give some insight to his character, so perhaps he can clarify if i am way off base. But I don't take his insults too serious. But he sees the corruption by SNC, but jumps illogically to insult you and discredits all who are anonymous. That's our Bruno, sometimes spot on, often way off base.

    • After that rant calling me illogical is quite funny Winston. You don't understand PDA's if you did you would see my logic. I am not interested in a pedantic exchange with you. PDA shields crooked corporate actors from criminal charges BY DESIGN.

    • I read the PDA info from Peckfords piece, and agree it seems easy to manipulate for a get out of jail free.
      I am not sure of Ex approves of PDAs or not, rather than read it all again, he can clarify.
      Good to see you think my comment was funny, as 50/50 if I would get a broadside from you, but shows you can hold back.
      Actually there is serious study of LSD at top British university research. Like many drugs it affects the brain in ways not fully understood, and may prove useful in some cases, they suggest.
      It can mimic bipolar, cause a sort of religious experience, and for some a realisation that love is very powerful. It can also play bad tricks on the mind.
      I share your logic as to PDA being a problem for easy manipulation. Your leap in logic, I suggest, is saying Ex advocates for fraud , bribery and corruption. Logic should be like facts, you don't own your own facts, they are facts or not,although I suppose you can by experiment create a fact if a theory is proven.
      Maybe PDAs work in some cases, I am no expert on that, and new to me, but generally don't pass the smell test.


    • My own smell test tells me the criminal investigation won't bring any meaningful results against SNC executives. Recent sentences were kind of a joke, wasn't it? Only results would be that 10 years ban.

      But the impact on the employees…

      Going to sleep now

    • Trust you slept well Ex. Here there was a criminal investigation as to Hickman firm, 100 million fraud issue , RCMP involved about 15 years to investigate, and only a slap on the wrist. So was that justice?
      If 10 year ban is the law, that seems excessive. And if PDA avoid lengthy jail time , is that appropriate?
      Seems the aim should be save the company, punish the shareholders with very heavy fines,that also deters future temptation, and lengthy jail time for serious offenders.
      So, how to achieve that?

    • WA @ 09:19:

      What gets missed by most in this arguement is the type of corporate setup – partnership, corporation, LLC etc all have different transfer of liabilities.

      I would say though, punishing the firm and its shareholders for the actions of its officers is foolhardy – companies will simply setup outside Canada.

      Should SNC/officers face penalties for actions in Canada – yes, however when the action occurs in a different jurisdiction and under different laws it isn't an issue our justice system is setup to deal with.


    • PENG2, I suppose Fortis could set up it's head office in the Turks, and pay less tax, but I suppose operations in Canada and USA must follow USA and Canadian law and regulations. Example,Fortis GHG emissions, some 15 million tons?, this disclosure is a USA requirement. Is it ethical for Fortis to meet with our Premier to seek a low carbon tax for Nfld, say? What if Ball was a Fortis shareholder?
      But, if as you say, not to punish the firm and shareholders for the actions of its offices,as being foolhardy, when that action is fraud and bribery etc , criminal activity, least they relocate, is to encourage unethical and corrupt behaviour, and a race to the bottom, is it not?
      I an not sure, but I think the USA law forbids USA companies from using bribes for international business. Does Canada do the same? Bribes is expected to be paid in many other countries.
      Greed is often a motivation for criminal activity. Fortis,I assume, like many large companies, have risk management committees, that can keep greed in check. Officers are usually very large shareholders, so appropriate that they get hit for imprudent actions, especially criminal ones, and small shareholders not hit so much. So, where is the justice "IF" Nalcor officials commit crimes and no justice as to proper punishment?

    • WA @ 16:34:

      Law of the land vs law of where headquartered is why corporations setup foreign divisions, joint-ventures etc – there is a whole legal practice devoted to such concepts. In the case of SNC in Lybia, was that division dealing with those contracts even a Canadian entity?

      I don't think we can hold a Canadian corporation to the laws of Canada when operating in a foreign country – that would be the similar in practice as trying to hold a citizen to Canadian laws when in a foreign country (or alternatively now saying a Canadian citizen can smoke grass when in the US since our law is more progressive). This argument cuts both ways – our law may or may not be the best depending on the situation.

      I think holding the officers accountable is the only way it would work – the shareholders or the corporation may or may not have to follow Canadian law.


    • The law of the land is a simple phrase, and should say laws of the land, the Rules of Court being some 400 pages, and full of exceptions and discretions by the judge,etc. So too, Moses 10 laws, the Commandments is the short version,seems to cover those crimes,but in all, he had 613 laws, was it not, where the 10 did not fit?
      Just recently here, a judge saying ignorance IS an excuse when the guy sold nasty drugs, while the law says ignorance is not an excuse! So too we have Nalcor's experts, world class, even for courts, and Bruneau, of higher class, that is not a court expert, as to applies to Dave Vardy. So, I take the saying of old bay folks which says "the law is as crooked as it is straight", and seems is often true. And too, the poor cannot afford justice.
      Then we have our MFCCC lawyer Budden 30 years now, since 1989, chasing down the Catholic church as to the Mount Cashel accountability, and not settled yet. Recall, even Leblanc has been involved in the MC sexual assault matters……. how convoluted is the law of the land that 10, 20 or 30 years does not give a final answer as to what is justice?
      Yes there are legal specialities,even how to hide your money overseas to avoid taxes. In Lybia I think SNC paid about 50 million in bribes to get 150 million illegal profits, so a 300 % gain. Did Al Capone make that much margin? Seems to make engineering a dishonourable profession, or certainly not a shining light. We are all not without fault,and most try to do what is right, but these scandals are big league, and we are yet to see where our Inquiry here leads.
      I am far from qualified to say SNC broke Canadian law doing bribes overseas, but IF such is illegal for USA companies to do, then Canadian law is of very low standard,it seems to me, and past due for improvement.
      Seems the UN holds SNC to higher standards than Canada holds SNC? Seems your argument supports paying bribes overseas is ok, or I misinterpret your point of view? Seems in Canada, fraud over 5000 dollars is serious, if for an average Joe, but when in tens of millions, it is not serious at all,as to jail time, as they are not average Joes?

    • WA @ 19:38:

      Not quite – what I am saying is 2-fold:
      1) a corporation needs to practice by the laws on the land they are operating in
      2) our justice system is equipped to determine if a law is broken is another jurisdiction

      In the same way engineering codes vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, so do the laws – I don't necessarily think Canada has everything right either.


    • Sounds good, PENG2, except in Canada,for the most part, if it is Indian land,their law never applies, then either force a treaty and, and often no treaty, take control of their land or send in the Mounties, move out the Indians, and apply a different law, though the same land.
      In Lybia, under a dictator, it must be tough to follow ethics as taught in Canada, and easy to turn a blind eye, when big profits dangle. I think it comes down to the love of money or to follow ethics, and ethics is secondary. Thomas Jefferson had that problem, as to his 600 slaves, and too Washington, and even Ben Franklin part of his life, Jefferson by far the worst. So these types of issues of law and ethics are nothing new. When slavery was abolished, Jim Crow laws were enacted, much like slavery. As Flip Wilson used to say "the devil made me do it".
      These matters are seldom absolute, but relative,I think, and on your knowledge of events and details, to judge.
      As an investor, would you now or in the past, buy SNC stock,once knowing of their criminal behaviour?

    • Sorry gents you both speak gibberish.

      PENG2 the most rigorous laws should apply to all the corporate entities, not the lax laws of third world countries.

      Winston do you take ethical investing into account at all?

    • Winston and PENG2 from today:


      "It already costs roughly $800 million annually to operate the province's electricity system, and it's estimated that figure will more then double once Muskrat comes online."

      So I was correct that operating MF will lose 800 million a year. I wonder in whose world this makes any sense. Brilliant economics eh Winston!

    • Bruno@11;45 Answer yes. So I would stay clear of SNC for a lengthy period. I have never invested in SNC.
      Is it gibberish that I ask PENG2 if he would invest in SNC, and you ask me essentially the same thing, so gibberish too, by you?

      Bruno@ 13:51. You said previously that MFs operation costs is 800 M, and better to spill the water rather than operate.
      I said the cost of operation and to maintain about 110M ((i see figures stating 107 or 109 M) . I said if you operate, depending on amount of sales and the rate charged, that 800 M can be reduced considerably, so not better to spill the water, on economic terms(separate as to North Spur risks).
      So you still maintain that the loss is to be 800 million. You are only correct if there is zero sales of that power, or sales at zero rates.
      What economic theory do you follow? Sounds like John Smith's gibberish today on CBC posting, but the opposite direction.He says EVs here might make sense in 50 years time, and MFs great at 12.7 billion. He likes baseboard heat too, not 300 % efficient HPs. He says a small MSHP is 8 grand cost, as his brother installed one, this being twice the reasonable cost. SO his brother must be as bad a John as to economics, to spend twice the price. His brother is also called John. Like the show " This is me brother Darrel and me other brother Darrel.

    • More gibberish Winston it is simple, the more you produce the more you lose. The only way to trim losses is to NOT produce and swallow the sunk capital costs.

      No mumbo no jumbo Winston, the more you produce the more you lose!

    • The idea of sunk costs applies if you decide not to finish, and absorb costs already sunk. So if stopped at 6 billion wasted that is better than wasting a lot more.
      But when if 95 % complete and intent to finish, then the questions of how to make some income to pay off the loans. That is arithmetic. If no power sales and 800 m a year to pay, any sales at reasonable rates subtracts from the 800 M.
      Or sell it all for a dollar, and the owner can make profits with sales that exceed operation and cost to maintain (110M a year etc)
      A new owner can do that, or the existing owner can do the same and apply the benefit against the loans)
      That assume the system can function and work. Come by Chance was sold for a dollar and long since operating by private owners.
      DO you invest Bruno?
      What is your financial situation, as someone refered to you as Hobo Bruno. Maybe your are rich from your economic insights.
      But you make me question my own judgement, as I alone question you on this. If I am wrong, I should take a break to rest my mind.
      Bay de Espoir operated for years with give away power to Erco until electric heat consumption ramped up. THat was a poor assumption to warrant MFs, but to say complete and not operateat all is best, I call that stupid, without a plan to salvage what value it has by operating. I suggest Fortis and Emera etc love your approach:this asset has zero value! The vultures circle overhead.
      Give it HQ for 1 dollar, and also the right to Gull, and see what happens.


    • BC Hydro has been doing this for years;


      Buy high, sell low, defer debt and now we have $16B to slough off to our grand kids. The more I look at it, What NL has been up to is following the leader and practices of Enron. You make a good point Winston with regard to Joey subsidizing Erco, until the Avaloners "rescued" the revenue stream with poorly insulated construction and baseboard heating. I guess we learned from Etienne and Que; Power is cheap, let's see how much we can throw away:-). Same attitude here in BC.

    • No Winston I ignore trolls, you court them. If they don't have a name, they are lame. Does it matter whether I am a pauper or king? In my world persons are judged by the content of their character, not the size of their wallet. You Winston?

      Your "arithmetic" is wonky Winston. If you don't operate MF you lose LESS than 800 million. "The more you sell the more you lose." Get that in your head.

    • Bruno, you tend to tar and feather anonymous people, especially from Quebec. I assess what they say, if it makes sense to me. I disagree with some of their opinions, but do not imagine they are trolls, unless say John Smith who many now see through his constant BS.
      If I say 1 + 1 = 2 and if EX agrees, you can be expected to say we both can't do arithmetic.
      So try it, is not 1 + 1 = 2, and 2 + 2 =4?
      And is Pi 3.14?
      Is not a watt = E x I ? E being voltage and I amps of current?
      Does not a compass generally point to magnetic north?
      Is Labrador not down, instead of up, according to rural Nflders custom?
      Is not E=MC squared, Einstein said, did he not? Where E is energy, M is Mass and C the speed of light?
      As to judging by your world…….it that world, I wonder, free of so called mind expanding weed, LSD or other substances that might alter reality, as you see it, a different reality from others?
      One's character has much content, and not excluding the influence of the size of their wallet. If a fat wallet, is it inherited money? Was it self made from hard honest work,or too from shrewd long term investment, like Warren Buffett? Or was if from over a 100 million dollar start from the old man , and mere modest growth, like Trump?
      If a small wallet, is it because he is poor at arithmetic, does not know of compound growth, spends more than he earns, or fears and avoids any risk ? Or because he has good skills but puts little value on material things, giving much or most to the poor and unfortunate?
      So yes, if you are a pauper or king, it matters, as to how or why you got there. If a pauper, your character may or may not be better than the king….it may be. But how do I judge, not by the size of your wallet, but, in part by whether you think, and is satisfied that your wallet is big enough, or even too big.
      I did not judge you a hobo, another suggested that. And as to kings, did not David have many faults, and too Solomon?
      We all show a bit of our character in views expressed here.
      I suggested to you before: write a piece for UG, if you can, to focus your opinion and views, to expose more of your character that we might have more to judge. We see much of Des Sullivan and Dave Vardy, as to their character, by what they write, and what they do. Show more of yourself, Bruno, as to your mind, and your character, not your wallet.
      NL is so much in need of people of good character, and more so of leaders with good character, with good ideas. Show us, at least, your good ideas.


    • Bruno, you made me laugh with that reply.
      So, 1 + 1 = 2 is gibberish, so to other facts of math going back to early Greeks.
      Your so called facts are mostly opinion, not facts, and yes, you can own them. And too, Sullivan and Vardy character, as I describe them, is gibberish? Could it be you are world class expert on gibberish?
      Of course, I also present opinions, not all facts. Maybe I am wrong, and you are right, facts suggested by me are all wrong, and opinions gibberish.
      That aside, I really liked John Lennon. I should reassess.
      Sleep well, Bruno. What do you think of Greta?

    • PENG2 is taking a break but he should ruminate on this quote from a tory.

      In May 2018, Conservative finance critic Pierre Polievre asked Morneau why his budget bill included "a provision that would allow accused white collar criminals charged with bribery, fraud, insider trading and other offences to have all charges dropped."

    • DPAs are more common than most realize, currently some form of DPA existing in Singapore, Australia, Japan, and the bulk of the EU (at least in Germany, UK, France and Switzerland). How Canada's implementation rolls out is TBD – I think SNC is the first test?

      With respect to Bruno's math on MF- he is missing the boat a bit. The operation costs are estimated to be on the order of $100M – $150M, the rest of the $800M is capital repayment that has to be paid even if MF doesnt operate. His claim that the more MF operates the more money lost is also false – the cost to operate MF at 50MW is effectively the same as if operating 800MW (or whatever max capacity ends up being), so no incremental costs.

      The decision (aside for enviro, safety etc) to operate or not is 2 fold:
      1) supply concern: be whether or enough power exists within insular generation to supply the NS bloc and island demand
      2) cost concern: whether enough revenue can be regained when operating to cover the ~$150M operating costs

      Starting the MF plant and shutting down on short notice likely wont be feasible – HR supply, plant readiness and other such issues, operating will be all-in or not decision with a return period of several years or more.


    • WA @ 22:15:

      I base investments on stock performance – SNC from 1995 through 2010 was a good buy (great buy actually), since 2010 very flat and erratic. Since you would normally find out about corruption after the fact. What your are asking its not really a fair question, since unlikely shareholders or public knew of potential wrong doing at the time of increasing prices; so if good performance from here on they should have their act cleaned up and there is no issue.

      Anyway, bribes would have reduce operating profit while increasing contract load – very hard to say if past behavior had an effect on increasing stock prices and dividends paid at the time. We can certain say past behavior ha reduced prices recently and cut dividends though. So, since the parties involved are long gone from SNC employ – who is really being punished by fines to SNC except employees in ESPPs and stockholders?


    • Stop PENG2 you are turning my stomach. As I suspected you have no ethics, greed is good eh Gecko? Fraud, bribery, collusion, no problem just look at the bottom line. In bed paying bribes to dictators no problem, just look at the returns before the word got out about the bribes!

      No wonder you will not publish your name, you must hide your shame. Yuk I think I need a shower!

    • PENG2 punishing with jail sentences will quickly make CEO's suddenly compliant and act like decent community members and the jobs will be secured with companies that don't bribe and corrupt to get contracts.

      I guess you have not heard of corporate social responsibility that is the idea that businesses should balance profit-making activities with activities that benefit society. It involves developing businesses with a positive relationship to the society in which they operate. You say bribery and fraud are good.

      That disqualifies you from any discussion about MF with your lax to non existent ethics.

  5. Yes, Ms. Gerry had to resign, her concise would not let her do it. She may not have won power but very likely to have power trust upon her, and she was not willing to take on that responsibility. Gerry has a social agenda, yes, more so than the average NDPer. With the number of seats reduced from 52 to 40 and 3 parties looking for their fair share, that is just 13 seats per party, too crowded. And with the other 2 parties running neck and neck, of course she knew she would not win a majority govt. nor did she want to. But if she won just a few seats or even a couple she might hold the balance of power, a position she was not prepared to take that responsibility. She knew the next govt. must be prepared to make major spending cuts, including social cuts, and she knew that would have to be done for the province to remain solvent,but her concise would never allow her to do that, so she knew it was best for her to get out while the going was good. So a hugh hole remains for some ambitions person to get power without wining an election. That person might have to berry NDP normal agenda and principles and put the best interest of the province above any party doctrine or principles, and join with a maniority goverment to do what is best for the province. Who is up to that challenge!!! When we need a real leader, where are you???….ask average Joe.

  6. While Nfld Hydro is doing good on forecasting our grid peak demand a day or or in advance, they are mostly forecasting too high. Anyone care to guess why?
    They are off big time as to MFs forecasting, a 10.7 billion dollar forecasting error, if you can call it just an error.That forecast was for decades into the future where only fools would thread.

    Recall DarkNL was caused in part by wrong forecasting short term forecasting. Anyone recall that part and why they got it wrong, but they are much better now on short term.
    And did Snyapse suggest CDM would have little benefit for Labrador or the other way round, a lot of benefit? Anyone notice Nain, Labrador was the hot spot in Nfld a couple of days ago,as to high temperature.
    And did anyone see the CBC piece promoting EVs for Nfld? Where is our Green Party?
    And it seems Cortes in the USA has not endorsed nuclear for the Green New Deal to revolutionise their policy for 10 years solution. Is not the reining in of climate change, in the time frame needed,(50% reduction on GHG in 11 years time), doomed without nuclear?
    And if we have to give up something to mitigate high power rates, should the Atlantic Accord be taken off the table? 80% of fossil fuel known reserves must stay in the ground, do they not, to stop climate change. If that is so, does offshore not become a stranded asset?
    Winston Adams

    • Others, Rex Murphy, Trump, are branding the Green New Deal as a socialist, (communist), plot. Sounds like the "Red Scare" of the early 1900s. The loss of the Workers' support has certainly hurt movements such as NDP, (CCF), (UFA), etc. The 1919 Strike, UMW, etc. were all branded as Socialists, and beaten up by police. Now there was Joey and the IWA……

  7. The news is daily more strange. A sign of the last days maybe? Take these examples:
    A few day ago all of Australia was hit by record high temperatures for days, reaching 49.5 C in places, and many fish dying ( as North America was hit by a wandering polar vortex). Already many areas in Australia were suffering from 6 dry years. Now a major flood there. Cattle perished. Not a few hundred or a few thousand but 500,000 cattle dead.And dead kangroos that had climbed trees. Cattle died from 6 of 7 days of wind driven rain and died from the cold. The photos are shocking.Never made local news here, did it?
    Then Tasmania burning like Califoria was a short while ago. Tanmania forests, usually a bit wet, was dried out, and hit, in one day, by 2500 strike of lightning….dry lighting, that sets fires in a wholesale fashion. A scorched earth result, that my never recover.
    Then the story of polar bears in the Russian arctic, about 2 dozen, came assure on an island where 5 crew monitor a weather station. They were mighty hungry.
    Then Insectaggedon: we are to lose all of our insects on this planet within just 100 year, having lost 25 % in the last 25 years. Insects have a greater weight than humans, and essential to all life on this planet, a bigger threat than climate change.
    Then, the big hole under an Antarctic ice sheet; a third of a mile high and half as big as Manhattan Island. Ice sheets melting from underneath, too, as if surface melt wan't bad enough. If it fails the ocean instantly rises 10 feet or so,taking out many coastal cities, not the gentle rise we are now seeing.
    Now a book coming any day, claiming 80 % of Catholic priests are gay, based on interviews of bishops, priests cardinals, just as the Pope has a 4 day conference on sexual abuse.
    Also, Our Prime Minister entangled in the SNC scandal.
    And ,The Democrats in the USA calling for a Green New Deal, as Trump jokes about those wanting restictions on air travel ( as International Airlines meet in Montreal,and whose discussions are secret, as to how they deal with green house gas emissions). Te Paris Accord has placed no limits on air travel, yet. What of Trump and and his little plane? 100 bishops is flying in for the Popes meeting, not long after 1500 private planes carried the richest people to Davos. Who want to travel by low emissions train, other than Greta Thunberg?
    Also, here in Nfld we are in a rush to honour the remains of the Beothic, 2 sculls to be returned from Scotland. Meanwhile Trumpie makes jokes about the Trail of Tears, where some 4000 perished, about the same time as the last of the Beothic. Don Trump junior tweets SAVAGE, in support of his dad. Trump Senior hangs a painting of the US president Andrew Jackson at the Whitehuse. Jackson ordered the American Indians on their Trail of Tears journey, part of How the East was won, as this was before Custer.
    And too, children marching as to climate change woes, because adults act like children.
    The EU may splinter, they say, like the Soviet Union fell apart.
    And we MFs naysayers are seeking TRUTH, about Muskrat… But, can we handle the truth?
    What interesting times. How can one be bored?

    • Wow Winston you are right full of the latest news, at home and afar. Good summary. Much better than the local media, they get on one tid bit and repeat it over and over, like 10 cm of snow coming in two days time, and then we get 20 or maybe only 5 with freezing rain. No not boring at all. But the Australia events and the hole in the Antarctic ice are alarming. And the people of the free world elect an iodit to govern them, not to mention his policies. Yes may be the beginning of the last days. Or maybe not even the end of the beginning of the end says Joe blow, so upwards and onwards.

  8. Is it possible for us to take over the local NDP party? We could have Dave Vardy, Des Sullivan, Ron Penny and many others (behind the scenes contributors to this blog) that actually care. It would be ugly though … like a dog catching an accelerating car and wondering what to do next and trying not to get itself killed. You'd have to be Machiavellian about it all and get the painful stuff over all at once rather than torturing the public a little at a time.

  9. Damn, another bribery charge against SNC for the Montreal bridge contract during the same period MF was negotiated.


    How much evidence of fraud, bribery, corruption does one need before the inevitable question is asked "could it happen here?" SNC bribed or corrupted every project in Canada or abroad during the MF negotiations timeframe. Why is nobody investigating the sole sourced contract with SNC Lavalin????

  10. So SNC uses bribery to close deals … which reminds me …

    From linkedin: In 2009, SNC-Lavalin acquired the engineering and technical services firm Spectrol Energy Services Inc. of St. John's Newfoundland and Labrador.

    How much of Spectrol did Danny Williams own? What was the sale price? Did they overpay? Can over payment be considered a bribe?

    The pricetag of the deal, announced Thursday, was not revealed. https://www.reddeeradvocate.com/business/snc-lavalin-acquires-newfoundland-based-spectrol-energy-services-inc-for-unknown-price/

    • In view of SNC-Lavalin's business practices and bribery on the McGill Hospital, Jacques Cartier bridge, overseas in Libya etc their business dealings with regard to Muskrat Falls project and including the purchase of Spectrol Engineering should be the subject of a rigorous investigation to uncover any potential illegal activity in their business dealings in this province.

  11. There was a NL climate change webinar today. Couple of points related to the need for Muskrat Falls power (or lack thereof):

    1) More rain. Five more days of 10mm + rain storms in central. Less likely we will have water shortages at the Bay d'Espoir dams.

    2) Slide title "Warmer temperatures mean less demand for space heat". It is interesting that they called out space heat.

    Corner Brook -21% winter heating degree days, Gander -20% and St. John's -18%

    3) Increased winter average daily temperatures between 3C to 4C on the island and 7C in parts of Labrador.

    This is over decades, not all at once, but the trend is that direction.

    Increasing winter temperatures and fewer heating degree days means less space heating energy is needed AND higher temperatures means that heat pump efficiency will increase further reducing electric demand.

    Add all this to a declining and aging population, technological improvements (better heat pumps), better construction / energy codes (more insulation) and no reason for large industry to locate here means that the every increasing demand projection from Nalcor/GNL were, most likely, just lies.

    • Pre sanction I pointed out the false statement by MHI report that our housing improvements had essentially reached a "saturation point"
      HPs alone reduces space heat energy more than 50 %.
      MHI was not questioned at the Inquiry on this point, was it?
      Of course Stratton didn't believe in CDM either,so no need of more insulation, better windows, air sealing etc, so why should MHI rock the boat to say other wise?
      For every 1 degree F increases,HP efficiency increases about 1.5%
      Our climate for HPs is excellent and will get better. Coastal Labrador even seems attractive for them, right now.

  12. Politics provincially of federally suck because the voter taxpayers will not force an accountability law to be passed which states that any corrupt act by a politician will be severely punished IE : seizure of all assets of the culprits involved , the politicians and the ones who bribe or try to the politicians . The ballot come election time has on one side the ones running and the other side the referendum points of what the people want enacted as laws . This is one way to take back the control the people must have . This is our province and country not the corruptors private domain to steal and suck the life blood from . Second point the penalty for the corruption , death or 75 yrs in prison working for room and board . Pay for a good job , basic salary plus a percentage of positive rise in the gnp of province and country . This is a start , let's hear feed back in this please

    • We need to start with a few concrete cases. For example, the board of directors at Nalcor that ruled that Ed Martin was dismissed for no reason, when he actually quit and when there was ample reason for being fired WITH cause. Grossly over budget and behind schedule would have been an excellent excuse for dismissal with cause.

      These members had a duty to protect the interests of Nalcor and the public. Instead they gave ed a cash gift by triggering a clause in his contract.

      They also resigned after that decision.

      I'd like to see those that voted on this be financially responsible for the extra severance cash. Either Ed gives it back, or they have to raise the funds themselves.


      and this

      Anyone here see why this couldn't be pursued?

    • Danny sold Spectrol Energy to SNC Lavalin for an undisclosed amount of money. Given the propensity of SNC to use bribery, can the police to investigate the financial details and determine if it grossly exceeded the true value of the company? Or at least report the ratio of sale price / estimated market value? We don't need exact details, but if it was sold for say, several million more than it was worth, then can this be considered a bribe? They could subpoena records from SNC-Lavalin to see how they had determined the value of this acquisition.

    • To Anon. @3PM, they're all laughing at you from Florida. I agree with you but it a hopeless case. Keep paying your taxes, the tax burden coming in 2020 (conveniently after the election) will make 2019 taxes seem like the good 'ol days. Move if you CAN!!!! Times ticking.

    • Anony @ 15:00:

      Read the AG report on the EM termination – it wasn't the only the board that determined 'constructive dismissal'.

      Based on the timelines and information in the AG report, I'd say probably a difficult case to make.


    • All I remember is that Ed had his propaganda machine summon the media to Hydro Place outside locked doors, can't allow those naughty media inside a public building you know, and proceeded to spew false spin about wanting to retire and spend more time with the grandchildren. His bored of directors meantime were huddled inside cobbling up an agreement, along with not in the loop company officers and staff who still reported to him, to award him substantially more largesse, based upon a previously well thought out golden parachute, on the basis that he was being fired or constructively dismissed. It all sort of has a bad smell to it, doesn't it. All this before the said bored of directors bolted for the door , some said.

  13. Duped again;


    Past malfeasance now equivalent to the Muskrat. BC., where the politicians for years have kept their base by low-balling hydro rates, are prepared to bankrupt their own grandchildren. David Vardy attempted to warn the new NDP/GR of the risks on Site C. No one listened. Hello Solar, heat pump options as hydro rates double, triple.

  14. The MFCCC meeting last night was well attended, perhaps twice as many as last time.

    Dave's presentation outlined a few worthwhile mitigation options but they aren't nearly enough. We need to get our fiscal house in order to get help from the federal government. We need to renegotiate the Nova Scotia contract which the feds bear some responsibility / shutdown the Nalcor parasite / change the take or pay legislation. It is a complex mess and whatever happens, DO NOT GIVE AWAY OUR REMAINING ASSETS. There is a real danger that current politicians will negotiate a bail out in return for offshore / upper Churchill / bay d'Espoir and other assets or perhaps come up with a payment schedule that ensures that none of us will pay — but our grandchildren will.

    A few NDP got up to speak. Lorraine expressed her frustration with the stonewalling before the vote and pointed out that the environmental review stated that a business case for MF was required. She claims there never was a business case.

    One prospective new NDP leader spoke up but was weak. No indication she would take any bull by the horns and address real problems.I am not sure what they are afraid of — what could be wrong with goals like good fiscal management and accountability.

    From the floor, the common theme was the lack of accountability (politicians and senior civil service) — that people profit from malfeasance but aren't prosecuted. Therefore, the bad behavior will continue. People feel our democratic system is dysfunctional. Lots of people expressed admiration for Dave/Des/Ron and their work.

    Des came across as the most passionate of the lot. He would be a good leader and has a good grasp of the complex mess we are in.

    The average age present was 600. Minor exaggeration here, more like tightly clustered around 60. Very few 20/30ish people. Had a few conversations afterwards — my my, is there ever contempt for the powerful people that seem to control all parties and towards the various "bag men".

  15. Still no problem , no accountability, no contracts . The company that did the ship refit on the naval vessel did a magnificent job of completing the task and saved Canada cash . The same deal here with Trudeau wanting to make money off awarding contracts to favoured but very corrupt corporation . There are good and willing to be honest contractors out there , yes they need to profit but not billions for shoddy and overpriced work

    • It's The Way Forward,Robert. We produce 5 % of our food on the island, and Ball wants to increase it to 10% with more farming, so long as you don't live on your farm land.
      And how is the Plan working so far? I hear we will soon be shipping potatoes the other way, along with high profit electricity sales across the Gulf.

    • We will never be able to price competitive with off-island mega farm produce distributed via the big chains. If we had farmers markets set up across the island where the only requirement was that the food is genuine (grown here, not resold from grocery suppliers)then small farmers could make a go of it. The public would also need to be willing to pay a little more for good food. It is a shame that much of the agricultural land in the St. John's area was destroyed. MUN should bring extension services back and offer inexpensive agriculture courses. Potato prep for storage, apple pollination, fungus control, fertigation, aquiculture, organic techniques, grafting, raising chickens, animals diseases, etc. — it is surprisingly complex to do well. We have applied science as MUN engineering but nothing like applied biology.

    • The only way for locally produced vegetables to be able to compete with imported pricing is to have a cheap supply of fertilizer. That would mean having it come in by the ship load. Buying locally now is a novelty because we must and will try and keep our grocery bills as low as possible.

  16. https://www.thetelegram.com/opinion/letter-to-the-editor/letter-muskrat-falls-the-irony-and-sadness-of-it-all-284559/
    I saw Brian Peckford's letter to the editor about the Lower Churchill Development Corporation partnership between Canada and NL 51% NL and 49% Canada from the 1970's. Unfortunately he was premier after this agreement from 1979 to 1988 approximately and did nothing to advance it that anyone knows about and likewise his successors. I believe that successive federal governments refused to get involved will this file, preferring to leave it between Quebec and NL.

    • It did not worked because :
      –NL has nothing to do with that much power and must sell it
      –Qc did not need that power
      –Qc was not (and is still not) interested to enter in a new contract with NL until NL proved that its intention is to respect the contract instead of fighting it
      –Inter-connections between HQ's network and other markets are not capable to carry that much power because they are already loaded
      –NL insisted to be the seller, so to turn to a competitor to HQ instead of being a partner or allied
      And there are probably more reasons but these are clearly enough to explain why it went nowhere